The Goal of Postmos

Our group is a grassroots group.  It has been put together by people who volunteer to the idea that people who have left Mormonism need a place to meet others who have left.  The secondary goal is that not many people are aware of groups like this, and our goal is to be very public so that people who need the support can find people in similar situations.  After those of us have covered from our initial leaving, many of us stick around to help others through the process and because we like the other people who we have met.  I don't know the future of this group, but it has been extremely rewarding to me to have been part of it.  It has been enjoyable to see the changes in people's lives, who would not have had any other place to turn to, who have often found other life friends.  Our group is not without its flaws, but considering that it's all volunteer, considering that it's only people who are trying their best, those flaws are insignificant.  I am grateful for all the friends that I've made as a result of it.

Provo Pride!

If you haven't heard, Provo is having it's first Pride festival.  Check it out here. The idea hatched just a few months ago, with the committee putting in many hours of work each week to make the thing a success.  The community has been quite supportive of their group.  We will, of course, be there, as the Postmos group has helped Provo Pride in whatever ways we could.  The event is on September 21st, from 10am to 8pm.  It corresponds with the BYU-Utah Rivalry game.  That was completely done on purpose, to get as many people out there as possible.  The Provo Pride committee has done a good job in getting information out to the presses and to the community, so that many people are very enthused about this event.  I'm excited as well.  We wish them all the success that we can!

Corresponding with Provo Pride, we also plan on having a lecturer by someone who went through Evergreen the week of the event.  Evergreen was (is?) the LDS church's gay rehabilitation program.  To keep the tone as positive and welcoming as possible, we're currently trying to find a second speaker who is still LDS or is considered a success story (no promises there).  For this event, we will likely offer three lectures, one day, one evening at UVU, and one at the U of U.  More information to come on this soon!

Potential speaker at Postmos: Hans Mattsson

One round of applause to Hans Mattsson for what he recently did.  That takes a lot of bravery.

So my last post was about the exmormon rumor mill.  I made that in response to hearing about Hans Mattsson and his future New York Times article from Grant Palmer nearly a month ago.  I'm pleased to see that the New York Times artcle was finally published. I then realized that my post was stupid since it could screw him over, and deleted any references to him from my post, or twitter, etc.  Still, that got me to contact Hans a month ago, and get him to say he might be willing to speak to us.

My goal is to get him out here during the week of the Exmormon Foundation Conference.  Preferably that Sunday night, October 20th.  This means that we would need to pay for his flight out, hotel and other accommodations,  and a speaking fee, so nearly $2000.  To donate to that, do so here:  http://www.postmos.org/donate.html.  I'd work in close conjunction with the other major exmormon players to make sure this was a smashing success.  My philosophy has been to never charge people, because I want Mormons to be able to show up to something like this who wouldn't otherwise.  In fact, this might be an event where I would advertise it plenty of places as not being associated with us.  (Like we did with the "Help!  My Loved One is Apostatizing!")

As far as other speakers, we did buy Brian Dunning (aka Skeptoid) a plane ticket last April.  Unfortunately, a week after we bought the ticket, he pleaded guilty to fraud.  At that point, we couldn't get a refund for the ticket. 

Mr. Deity is willing to come speak with us.  On a Thursday in a couple weeks, we'll have a skype meeting with him, where anyone can ask him questions directly.  In order to fly him out, that will also require a speaking fee from him, as well as accommodations.  I'd like to do that, but my first priority is Hans Mattsson at the moment.

As far as donations go, I'm more than happy to show anyone the accounts in person if they want to follow how the money is spent.  I have no concerns with that.  I usually end up spending my own money to make things happen, and I'm often fine with that.  This, however, is far enough outside of my price range that I wouldn't be able to cover the costs without having to save up for quite a while.

The Exmormon Rumor Mill

Since I spend enough time with plenty of exmormons, I hear all sorts of funky things.  I'm passing things along that I found on the internet, after hearing about these stories.  Please note that I'm not claiming any of this is true (and that I just like speculating, which gives me a good probability that I could be wrong), but it is certainly interesting:

Julio E Davila:  Davila was in the second quorum of seventies.  That's pretty high up in the LDS church.  Rumor is that he had an affair with a secretary and lives in Mexico city with her.  Rumor also is that he doesn't believe in the LDS church.  If that's true, he would be the highest mormon authority, that's known to not believe.


Terryl Givens:  A devout Mormon professor in Virginia.  He apparently knows all of the mormon history problems, yet says that he chooses to believe anyway.  He's been going around Britain giving fireside talks about church history problems, and is going to do the same in Provo this July (2013).  It seems that the church acknowledges 10 major problems with the church, and is going to roll out a 3-year plan of Church approved history books to deal with these (according to David Twede at Mormonthink).

The unknown seventy who doesn't believe:  

Speculation is rampant among exmormon boards about which seventy met with Grant Palmer, which he gets a lot of flak for.  I'm not sure why I linked to the FAIR blog... they have silly reasoning as usual, rationalizing that it has to be Carlos Amado, Claudio Costa, or John Dickson, and saying that that's impossible!  FAIR's reasoning was that the GA had to have been a GA since 1995 in order to have intimate contact with the twelve apostles of the church.

Now, I'm certain that there's more than a few seventies who don't believe.  But I present to you my theory.  Now, since Grant has never actually told me any details regarding this seventy other than what was said on the Mormonthink blog...  (*cough* ...actually, I thought it was Marlin K Jensen that Grant was meeting with ... I really don't think Marlin believes... *cough*  I asked Grant, "What do you think of Marlin Jensen?"  Based on Grant's response, that wasn't the GA he had been meeting with..)  Anyways, since I don't have any more information than anyone else, I am free to speculate and post my speculation publicly.  According to Grant, this particular GA doesn't plan on coming out, figuring the church will take care of itself.

Narrowing down the seventy:

Now, the people on Mormon Dialogue forums had two guesses: Lynn Robbins and Craig Zwick.  The guess here is based on separating GA's by who is in Utah (or North America), who is in the first quorum (since Grant said specifically "First Quorum" and not "Presidency"), and since they have been in the seventy the longest, 16.2 and 18.2 years, respectively.  Based on the familiarity with the apostles and the stages they go through, we can get rid of anyone who isn't in Utah, who has served under 10 years, leaving us with:  Elders Walker, Golden, Snow, Robbins, and Zwick (in choronological order).  We can remove Walker and Golden, considering they were in Asia and Africa most of the past decade, ensuring they would have less contact with the twelve.  Snow can also be removed, since this June 2013 Ensign article by him is anti-internet and anti-learning.   Leaving us with, Robbins, and Zwick.

Zwick is part of the correlation and missionary department.  His construction company has also built many church buildings.  He also is apparently a Republican (although Robbins donated the same amount), whose son helped out on the Romney campaigns.  (Whoa!  That's a huge TIE to the LDS church!)  I don't think it's Zwick.  Someone who didn't believe in the church couldn't be part of the correlation and missionary department.  Someone who had huge financial ties to the church, where coming out as a non-believer, wouldn't have suggested that he would even come out, much less risk meeting with Grant because it could influence his construction company, his son's political job, and their financial future.

By the process of elimination, I present to you Lynn G. Robbins, who I suspect to be the apostate seventy who is meeting with Grant Palmer.  Keep in mind, that this is all just a rumor (that I'm starting,) that has no basis in anything, other than the things that I've linked to on the internet.

Lynn G. Robbins:  Lynn has a son who is openly gay.  He currently has no role identified on the LDS church web site, giving him free time to just hang in Utah. His money is less tied to the church, although still tied with the Franklin Covey group.  He talked about general Christian principles and hypocrisy in his last talk, where he ended with a generic testimony ending.  He's been in the first quorum since 2000, second quorum since 1997, being in a position over the United States areas.. and considering the South American boom in the nineties where he was a mission president, would have had plenty of contact with those in the twelve who were stationed down there.


Whoever the apostate seventy is, it's a shame that he won't openly come out as non-believing.  The world needs more heroes who speak up when they see something wrong;  we're all in this together.

2nd Annual Mass Resignation Event from the LDS Church

Date:  June 29, 2013. 

Time:  7:00 pm – open to the public.

Location:  Ensign Peak Trailhead

In June 2012, over a hundred people showed up to support resignation from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (also known as the Mormon or LDS church).  This year, they are doing it again. Former and current members of the LDS church will be marching on Ensign Peak at 7pm on June 29, 2013, in a mass resignation event from the LDS church.

This event means a lot to the people who are involved.  Resigning from the church is a milestone for some, showing that they no longer want to be associated with the LDS church or its practices.  Many people never resign who no longer believe.  Those who do resign do it to make a statement, either to the church, themselves, or their families.  For some, that statement is simply to stop the church from contacting them to return.  For others, that statement is for themselves, marking that they have moved beyond church culture and church beliefs.  And still, for others, that statement is about disagreement with church history or practices, such as the Evergreen rehabilitation program, the polygamous nature of both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and changing church doctrines.

For many who resign, Mormonism has been a culture and way of life.  Leaving the church can be a traumatic experience for some, as those people adjust to a world “outside the church”.  As an example, people who leave the LDS church may not experience their first coffee, tea, or alcoholic drink until they have left the church, which could be in their 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s.  Many people who stop believing in the church feel that they have to learn to live a new life. 

Members can resign from the LDS church by sending an email to msr-confrec@ldschurch.org with their full name, date of birth, and membership number.  Other information such as baptism date and their ward or branch can also be supplied.  A letter can also be sent to Member Records, 50 E North Temple, Room 1372, SLC UT 84150-5310. 

Salt Lake Pride Festival!

Honestly, I couldn't have expected pride to go any better.

Sure, security started to surround one of our guys.  Like, lots of security.  We confronted them about it, and apparently they thought he was someone else.  The crowds were very receptive to us.  It was a blast.  Next year we are planning on getting a vehicle, with music going and a trailer behind it, either for a float or so people can dance!

In case you haven't heard, some of us are helping out in planning a Provo Pride Festival for this September.  Check it out!

Keepin' it ZEN

Going through life as an ExMormon, now Atheist, there are a lot of obstacles that pass by, especially when it comes to things like an old friend who is still currently active in the church approaches you for the first time after the transformation to unbelief. It can seem frustrating at some times, especially after many misconceptions. All I have to say is to Keep It ZEN, meaning to have much patience and kindness, no matter how difficult the situation. If things go out of hand with the other person, I find it important to excuse yourself and kindly leave the conversation.

As a proclaimed Atheist, I encounter many misconceptions, that and sometimes angry people, just because I don't believe anymore and have a different point of view for things. Many misconceptions I hear as an ExMormon Atheist are "You're only angry at God, because...", "Such and such things of your prayers weren't answered because you probably where living in sin", "God didn't answer your prayers when you expected them, so you decided to become a baby about it by pretending to disbelief" and of course the one that only happens for a little while when they say "Oh, you're probably just going through a phase", but that one stops a couple of months or so after you haven't returned and they realize it's not a phase after all. Again, these are many misconceptions, mainly created through assumption and conclusions. Many times I have to make myself clear, explain that I'm not angry at God, I never was, plus I can't be angry at something I don't believe to exist. Being angry at God to me only makes as much sense to be angry at Spongebob for living in a Pineapple, which wouldn't make any sense. Explain that unanswered prayers probably had nothing to do with living in sin, I did all I could to live righteously, I don't see how a loving God like the one proclaimed by the LDS church would abandon one of his children just for simply not being perfect (Even he LDS church teaches that everybody is imperfect. They believe that Christ came to pay for our sins for not being perfect), what kind of God would do that? Now people that say that "God didn't answer my prayers when I expected them" trying to make the point that God answers prayers at his own time... well those people don't even know a single thing about me and why I left the church. When I was LDS, I believed the whole thing of God answering prayers at his own time. What they don't know about me is that I felt that God did answer my prayers, I believed that when he answered me, it was usually through the Holy Ghost and/or signs that I saw that seemed so conviencing to me that they must have been some kind of sign for my faithfulness and thought came from God, I actually got to the point many times that I was 100% sure of it without a doubt that they were from God. The thing is, all those things pretty much all just went down the drain and non of it was true after all. And the whole phase thing, as I already explained, isn't a phase at all when it continues to last without any turning points and knowing that I could never return for many many reasons. That doesn't sound like a phase to me.

Anyways, to my conclusion, after all these misconceptions as well as others not mentioned, even the most frustrating ones, I find it important to just be patient and to Keep It ZEN (I think that shall be my new slogan, lol.) In the past I've only come to realize that if you argue back and continue arguing, you'll only help create more frustration and within yourself as well, which only leads to angry people and NOBODY getting their point across to the other person. So I'll just say it one last time, Keep It ZEN :)

Conference Demonstrating

Saturday, April 6th, 2013

I couldn't help it.  I had to be out there, doing something.  I ended up holding the two signs shown above for most of the time.  I had one guy pass by, "Oh no!  I'm afraid to think."  I didn't say anything, but if I was Mormon, I would be.  Think about the question, "if the church was false, would you want to know?"  Many Mormons wouldn't.  It's their life, it's their family, it's their culture.

The guy standing next to me was with me all of Saturday.  Church security came out and took our pictures.  Funny thing, they don't have any cameras in that particular corner that we were standing at.  It's only after we appeared friendly that the guy began talking with us, especially after I pointed out that he was church security based on his ear piece and pin.  Church security asked us whether we were pro or anti LDS.  That means that we were doing it right.  We wanted to appear LDS.  I didn't take any pictures of the other demonstrators, but generally they are just over the top and push people more towards the church.  We looked Mormon.  Even though we are no longer LDS, we are still very culturally LDS.  We would blend in at any Church function.  We talk the talk, can think the think, and can look the look.  Our families are LDS.  It's still our culture and background.

Our goal was to look friendly, Mormon enough, and not crazy.  The point was to show that there are friendly apostates around.  There's tons of people who are attending conference who no longer believe are or on the verge of belief.  I stood out there for those people, so they can find more information and other exmormons if they need it.

Our look and posters worked.  On top of that, my friend discussed with the over-the-top protestors.  He used very Mormon language when arguing with them.  When he did that, we both looked much more Mormon.  Huge swaths of crowds would stop and stare at me.  They would look at me for plenty long, often smiling after they read one or another sign.

A 5-year old girl went to my friend for a hug.  Her mom was very against it, but eventually let the little girl go.  The little girl gave my friend a hug, and then tried to hold the "hug an exmormon" sign.  Hahah.. oh man.  That made us uncomfortable, because we don't want any trouble.  We tried to get the girl to go back to her mom as quickly as possible.

There were people standing around trying to get conference tickets.  There was one guy who looked like he belong in the 1930s, with a brown fedora.  He started preaching about the book of mormon, and how people shouldn't believe the other protesters but they should believe us.  We then corrected him.  He then started yelling, "But don't believe these guys!  They are adulterers."  I then yelled back, "Unfair! Unfair!  I can't be an adulterer!  I've never been married!"  He then yelled, "These guys look for a sign!"  I then yelled, "I have plenty of signs right here!  I'm holding two!"  (I thought it was very Mormon of him to be so presumptuous about us -- he had never talked with us and didn't know any of our positions on anything.)

When my friend talked with one of the other demonstrators, he got called "just as bad as the rest of them" and a "liar" because my friend called himself an atheist.  I got called by that same demonstrator a "snake" a couple years ago, because I looked Mormon.  (I hung out at conference then, around the demonstrators to see how they behaved.)

Sunday, April 7th, 2013

I asked a young Mormon couple to take my picture here.  It's a cool picture, but still kind of crappy -- I think they were uncomfortable doing it.  (There's nothing that makes a Mormon uncomfortable like an exmormon!)

You'll notice my cough mask, sunglasses and hat.  Well, I was alone.  And Sunday is a much bigger day.  People probably took my picture because I stood out.  Church security took my picture again, but didn't talk with me this time.  I took their picture as well.  I don't mind my picture being taken.  I actually usually hope they end up on facebook or some site like that, because it means that more people will see the sites.  This time, I didn't want to associate Postmo stuff with me, because I stood out so much.  Truth be told, I'd rather be there with that look than not have anyone or anything there at all.  If other people had shown up with me, I probably wouldn't have looked that way.  But since I was alone, I made a gargantuan sign that I could hold up very high, that could be seen from a distance.  That's also something that other demonstrators don't do.  Even with my cough mask, sunglasses, and hat I still looked Mormony.  It actually did confuse some people, because some people did ask me whether I was LDS.  

One lady came and talked with me, "Are you LDS?"  

Me - "I served an LDS mission."

Lady - "Are you LDS?"

Me - "No, I'm not."

Lady - "Well then you must have done something wrong on your mission."

Me - "Whoa, that's a strong accusation!  I worked my butt off on my mission."

Lady - "Well you must have done something wrong on your mission.  Do you read your scriptures?"

Me - "No, I don't."

Lady - "Well that's your problem."

I understand that people are like this normally, just by the sake of being human.  But I believe that Mormonism amplifies looking down on people, and finding unreal flaws in others like this lady did.  Immediately she jumped to me having done something wrong.  She would be surprised at the number of people who attend church regularly who don't believe.

My feelings about protesting are probably best shown by another conversation with a guy.

Guy - "So, what is that site?"

Me - **handing him a pamphlett** "It's a history site."

Guy - "Is it pro LDS or anti LDS?"

Me  - "It's written by both LDS and former LDS people."

Guy - "Are you trying to deconvert us?"

Me - "I don't care whether you remain believing or not.  I think society is generally better when everyone understands and knows more."  Truth is, I also want to reach those people who are stuck in bad family situations who don't believe, who have no one to reach out to.  I wanted to hold a sign that said, "Postmos:  A group trying to prevent suicides by people who stopped believing by giving them friends." 

Guy - "Isn't this a little in your face?"

Me - "Well, your missionaries knock on my door at 10am on a Saturday morning.  This is a lot more benign than that."   If there's ever anyone who isn't Mormon at work, they usually end up with a minimum of three Book of Mormons -- that's a lot more in your face.  

Guy - "Did you go to BYU?"

Me - "No, I didn't."

Guy - "Then why are you wearing a BYU hat?  You look like a Mormon.  You're lying to people."

Me - "Well, I'd argue against you, but I won't.  But I am culturally a Mormon.  I was raised and am practically still Mormon."  

Guy - "Heh, yeah, look at your clean shaven face."  He then took off.

I'm not an antagonistic person, which makes it somewhat ironic that I was the one standing out there.  He was right, the BYU hat was lying.  But I felt that no other action of mine was lying.

The amazing part though was that the church had some very strong talks against the internet.  They even said that you shouldn't have emails that you don't share your password with your spouse!  That's CCRAAAAZZZYY.  First, that shows a lack of trust.  Second, that makes it much harder for people in horrible spousal situations to actually get out of them.  I think that's insane.  So, having me, stand out there, with one large website, for everyone to see, hopefully made an impression on a lot of people.

I then left when the afternoon session started.  I figured it was a good time to leave, as most people would have seen me leaving the morning session or going into the afternoon session.  I wouldn't reach any new people.  Besides, I didn't want to have to deal with traffic.  

When leaving, a bunch of really big guys asked to take a picture with me.  When taking a picture, one guy said, "The church is true."  I said, "Cool."  He then repeated, "The church is true."  I repeated, "cool" again.  They said something else, but I just wished them an enjoyable conference.  I encountered other protesters and they said that I was ineffective, especially since I had a quote from a feminist, ("The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off." - Gloria Steinem)  I'm glad they think that, because I don't want them to realize how effective I was.  I passed one church security guy.  He just sort of glared at me.  One protester said that church security told him that he would be better off dead.  Church security slightly scares me. 

When it boils down to it, I've been happier and more fulfilled as an apostate.  That's why I was out there.  Utah is #1 for antidepressant use (and any number of other things).  Mormons would be so much happier if they just weren't Mormon.  If they want to be miserable, they are welcome to it, but I'm going to try my darndest to see if I can't get them to see something better, more honest, and more open.  

I'll likely be back in the Fall to demonstrate, because I can't help it.  When I see something that I think will improve society, it's just in me to do what I can to help it along.

Hello! It's been awhile since I've posted. I've been dealing with custody court, meeting with other anti-polygamy people/groups, and working my jobs.

I've gotten quite a bit more information from the inside (Kingston Polygamous group). I got a hold of a Dance Card! I've tried to upload it here, but for some reason I couldn't. So instead, I'll describe what it's about and what's on it.

I realize there have been dance cards made before so that people would dance. For example, I heard of a dance card where you had to have girls/boys sign it, kind of promising to dance with you. That way people were dancing and not just sitting on the sidelines. That's a great way to make sure everybody dances and has fun, so I approve. This dance card, however, is completely different. This card was designed to keep more control on their young people.

On the first of the paper in bold letters it says," DANCE CARD", then underneath it is, "For Dance Card use ONLY. Please DO NOT use for scratch paper. Thank you!" Then there's a space for Name, Date, Type of dance (Holiday, Wendell's (picture Mr. Burns from The Simpson), etc), Time arrived, and Time departed. Under that it says, "List the people you dance with on the lines below. At the end of the dance, turn your dance card into your parents. Try to spend 50% of your time learning something new." Then there's 4 columns, First column says "Partner First and Last name", 2nd column says "Dance Step (Waltz, Fox Trot, etc)." The other two columns are the same. There's 50 spaces for names and steps. On the very bottom of the paper says, "Reviewed by and date (meaning date reviewed)."

Okay let's talk about this for a second. We'll start at the beginning. What if you really needed scratch paper? What if somebody was leaving a message you had to give to somebody else and that was the only paper you had on hand? I mean seriously? Hey at least they're being polite with the "Thank you!" Alright that brings us to the "Time arrived and Time departed" that's a little bit strange isn't it? I think there's enough said about that. I just wanted to point it out. Also I realize people are going to think, "O look they're trying to get their young people to try new things!" That's what they want it to seem like. When you hear how the card works you start to realize that's not their main focus. So now I will explain to you how this dance card works. For the boys in the group they are supposed to write the names of girls they want to dance with on the card before the dance. They then give the card to their parents. Their parents review it and can take away or add any girls' names they want their sons to dance with. The boy's parents meet with the parents of the girls that they REALLY want their sons to dance with (or marry) and okay it with the girl's parents. The boys have to dance with the girls that are already on their card. If they finish the card before the dance is over and they dance with any other girls they have to add the names of the girls that weren't on the card, along with the style of dance. After the dance they have to return the card back to their parents. The parents initial and put the date that they reviewed it after the dance.

So after the parents review it I'm not sure what happens to the card. I've asked and none of the young people know either. I do know that the Kingstons practice the Law of one above another, so I'm wondering if the parents have to turn the cards into the man that is "above" their family. Now this is not confirmed, it is just a thought I had. So now I must go, and I promise not to go MIA for so long again...Unless I go on vacation or something. ;)

My Exit Story Pt 4

Links to Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3

This last step, from being an agnostic (but still mormon in certain subconscious areas) and changing into a full PostMo, would once again take a little longer that perhaps it should have. Religion didn't really interest me, so I had no real reason to go back and actually study the issues with religion. Ironically, this led to a delay in finally throwing the last shackles off. Some little corner of my brain still held a little bit of an indoctrinated opinion (Well, if any religion is true, it’s probably mormonism), but my lack of enthusiasm for religion is precisely what prevented me from taking the time to root that opinion out. I remained semi-mormon because mormonism didn't interest me; now that's some ironic shit right there.

There were a couple of events that finally precipitated my final de-conversion step. The first occurred about a year ago during the holidays. That year, Christmas fell upon a Sunday. With all of the family in town, my mother begged and eventually convinced me to attend church with everyone else. She probably thought that it would be easier for me, as a Christmas session is church “easy mode”. They do a lot of singing, and not a lot of preaching. These things didn't prevent me from being incredibly uncomfortable, however.

The first problem I encountered  was the simple realization that my voice was shot. I haven’t really sung for many years now, and could no longer hold a pitch the way that I used to be able to. It was painful for me to try to sing precisely because I could remember being far better at it then I currently was. This isn't exactly a problem with mormonism, but it nevertheless led to the connection that I was not happy while inside the church building.

The second problem had mostly to do with the lyrics of the songs that were sung. Honesty is a large part of my current moral identity, and as I would look at the lyrics to the songs, I would look at their meaning and quickly realize, “I cannot sing this. To utter these words would literally make a liar out of me!” For members, the songs are harmless, innocent little things. For me, I could look at them and see messages that rang false, and see passive brainwashing that couldn't be unseen once you had noticed it. These were songs that I was morally bound to not sing. I was miserable the entire time I was there, and couldn't wait to leave.

The other main event that helped me take that final step was being invited into a local ex-mormon group. Someone up in my office area had heard me give some of my opinions on religion one day, and realized that I would probably be a good fit for their group. They added me to the group, and invited me to participate in the events that the group held. I ended up attending an atheist vs. mormon debate event that the group held a few weeks later, and had a very fun time at the event. Not only was I enjoying myself, but I was also being exposed to some of the evidence against the church. Some of this evidence sounded like some pretty crazy stuff; as it turns out, the claims were just wild enough to hold my interest, and actually convince me to spend time researching about them.

Once that step had been made, the rest was history. The only thing that had kept me from really rooting out my mormon heritage up until that point was a lack of interest; once the spark of interest had been lit, there was no stopping it. My education is far enough along that I’m decent at not only looking at an argument head-on, but also analyzing its underlying logic for problems, as well as looking up their sources in order to make sure that any claims were backed up by popular scientific acceptance. So I wasn't just looking at something that somebody said and accepting it as true; I was fully researching these pieces of evidence before moving on.

And boy, did I find a treasure trove. From the Book of Abraham to the accounts of the First Vision to the surmounting archaeological evidence to the problems with the 3 and 7 Witnesses, each new thing that I encountered (and subsequently verified the validity of) just seemed to bug my eyes out a little more, and make me wonder how I ever could have believed this stuff! The evidence against it is astounding, and the fact that the church retains as many members as it does in the internet age is a testament to the strength of its brainwashing indoctrination.

While these discoveries included many horrifying things, it wasn't all bad. This has led to an increased desire to study the problems existent within religion, and has helped me develop my own moral code in useful directions that I might not have otherwise considered. Nevertheless, let it be said plainly and clearly at this point: I am Out of the mormon church. I am just as confident in it’s falseness as its members are in its authenticity. There is a 0% chance that I will ever return, and I will never claim it to be anything but a fraud. Let there be no doubt on this matter. This is my Exit Story, and I have definitively Left the Building. I am a happy PostMo, and it is better over on this side.

My Exit Story Pt 3

Links to Part 1 and Part 2

Shortly after choosing not to go on a mormon mission, I had essentially settled into a Marcus Aurelius version of agnosticism. If there’s a good god out there, he won’t hold it against me to be a good person that’s not religious. If there’s a being out there that will hold it against me, then such an asshole doesn't deserve worship. And if there’s nothing out there at all, then I’m not wasting away my life inside a church.

You'd think that this would mean that I was out of the church, right? Well, maybe not as much as you'd think. Childhood indoctrination is a powerful enough force that many of my default modes of thought remained mormon in nature. I called myself agnostic because the thought of moving on and calling myself anything beyond was repugnant; that part of my indoctrination was still alive and kicking. I didn't think of myself as a mormon, but I also couldn't really call myself anything else. Anyone that tried any drugs (even my best friend in high school who tried marijuana while in the military) was automatically an evil person in my mind, and I’d distance myself from them. Anyone that drank was a lesser person in my eyes. These are beliefs that I had only because they were religiously indoctrinated into me as a child, and they are some of the ways in which my line of thinking  remained sadly mormon in its defaults. This mode wouldn't really change at all until my life in general underwent significant change about a decade after I’d gotten out of high school.

At this point in my life, I was living a somewhat dreary existence. I worked a crappy job that was gnawing away at my will to live, and was essentially the same as the previous job I’d had, and the one before that. Each time I’d reach a point (about a year into the job) where I just couldn't stand the job anymore. Usually it would be solved by moving onto another job with another company, but that was only a temporary stopgap, and I was beginning to realize that. The job I’d move to was just like the old one, and once I’d spent enough time there to feel like I really knew what I was doing, the same things would once again make me hate my job.

I was getting ready to make the switch again. I had done an interview with a new company, and was mentally prepared to leave my job and move to the new one. I ended up not being offered a new job, but I was still mentally at the point where I’d quit my existing job. You ever put in a two week notice, and find your motivation to do anything at all non-existent during those two weeks? That’s where I was at, only I didn't have a new job to move onto. Being forced to work a job that I had already mentally let go of was excruciating. If I thought I hated my life before, I knew without a doubt once this happened; I was very miserable. Through sheer luck, a friend of a friend heard about it, and he mentioned that his mother worked at the local university. Whenever he had a friend that wanted to get back to school but didn't really know how, he’d direct them to his mother, and she’d help them figure out what needed to be done to get themselves back into school.  I met with her, got my shit together, and got back into school.

The largest part of school that helped form my third step in leaving were the philosophy courses I took; learning good philosophy can be an excellent foundation for rooting out mormon bullshit. I ended up taking a few classes from a specific professor, Chris, who was an excellent philosopher. After a decade away from school, she opened my eyes and taught me how to actually think. In trying to write term papers for her classes, I would end up in her office for brainstorming sessions, and they were always quite interesting. She never put forth specific conclusions or her own opinions, but would ask me for my opinion about a topic, and when I answered she’d simply point out some of the logical consequences of such a stance or belief. It was my choice whether I should come up with some sort of alteration or justification to overcome a consequence, or to change my opinion. No matter which way I chose however, each one of those also had logical consequences that would need to be considered as well.

Through this process she started teaching me how to think analytically. In addition to gaining a foundation of analytic thought, some of the specific subjects covered in the classes also dealt with directly moral issues. Discussions on moral realism and relativism certainly expanded my horizons, as well as those on free will and moral responsibility. By the time I had finished a couple of courses with her, I had access to several foundations for a moral base that no longer needed mormonism. And I found that morality was a subject that I enjoyed. Also, as I would have more brainstorming sessions, I found myself encountering logical problems with my default pseudo-religious views more and more often. The more I analyzed my default views, the more problems I would encounter with them. By the time I had finished those classes there were several previous viewpoints of mine that I had already concluded were definitely incorrect, and must be tossed. I did not feel bad for these lost views, however. The sheer logic that the change in views came from was such a powerful thing that the usual resistance to change was largely absent. By the time I had formulated a new opinion, I had already worked out the hows and whys of the new opinion, and was on solid enough ground that the change was not difficult.

At this point I was almost all of the way home. I hadn't been to church for years, I had a solid foundation for my own moral code without the need for the church, and I had learned to think for myself. While I had managed to shed a lot of my mormonism, I was sadly still very mormon in several fundamental ways. I still hadn't actually sat down and studied the mormon religion and its problems directly, and this last piece would be needed before my transformation was complete.

My Exit Story Pt 2

Part 1 can be found here.

The second major step towards leaving mormonism behind came when I was 18 or so, and was really the combination of several events. One of the main things that happened then was that I had a girlfriend. My love life, up to that point, had been a story of Almosts and Near Misses. Part of this was because of my timid and naive nature, and part of it was because of my indoctrination; before 16 I was too young, and after 16 I was too different as a mormon to attract loads of interest (not every mormon is raised in Utah). There were a few girls I had fancied, and we had twirled around each other in our lives, but never quite managed to end up together in the traditional sense. This had largely culminated in an event just before my senior year (at a friend's birthday party) where a girl that I had circled around for years had shattered my fragile heart like it had never been broken before. This led to one of the only times in my life where I simply flirted with a girl just because, and not because I was crushing all over her; this, oddly enough, led me to Jen, the girl that I dated for several years after.

Jen was a nonmember. My parents probably disapproved of her precisely because she was not mormon. But they never seriously pressured me to dump her, probably because they knew that my most likely reaction to their interference would be to go in the opposite direction. Besides, my oldest brother had gotten a nonmember girlfriend in high school, and had managed to convert her; surely they would be able to do the same with mine. It probably also didn't help that there were virtually no prospects within the church; my ward literally had one female my age, compared to the 6-10 males of a similar age. Whatever the reason, my parents didn't object. So right at the age where young mormon males are supposed to be preparing to go on a mission, I suddenly had a non-mormon girlfriend. This naturally led to the usual girlfriend problems in regards to going on a mission; I didn't want to leave her behind. As a nonmember, her morals and standards were also a bit different than the mormon norm. She was willing to go much further in making out than the church would ever approve of, and I discovered that I really, really liked it. There was also a certain sense of acceptance that I had never really gotten on the church side of my life.

One example of this acceptance lies in the touchy realm (no pun intended) of masturbation (okay, slight pun was intended). This is something I sometimes engaged in, as most young men are wont to do. I was young, I was horny, and I was single; it happens, whether most of us admit to it or not. Since I slept through sacrament meeting most weeks I likely wasn't as indoctrinated as many children in the church. I knew that masturbation was considered to be wrong, but probably didn't understand just how evil the church considers it to be. I was more afraid of getting caught by my parents than I was of any….theological aspect. But nevertheless, I knew that it was considered to be wrong. And since I wasn't having any sex with my girlfriend (Jen was scared shit-less about the idea of getting pregnant, but knew nothing about contraception, so we didn't have sex), this meant that I would sometimes indulge in self-pleasure even as I dated Jen.

Since Jen was my first real girlfriend, I was very full-tilt about the whole relationship. I wanted to spend all of my time with Jen. I wanted to do everything together. I wanted her to know everything about me, and I wanted to know everything about her. Clearly this never really occurred, but whenever I was with her that was my focus. This caused some stress in my life, as I was certain that any girlfriend would be abhorred by the knowledge of her boyfriend masturbating. I felt a desire to be honest and tell her, but also a sense of dread as to what this revelation would result in.

As it turns out, it was mostly a non-event. When she was told, she was incredibly indifferent. She wasn't bothered at all by the knowledge that I would pleasure myself; as far as she was concerned, it was a perfectly normal thing for boys to do. Since I had been raised in the church my whole life, I had no idea that such a viewpoint even existed, so it was all rather shocking and eye-opening to me. And I was also somewhat struck by the warm feeling that this was a girl that accepted me for who I really was, without conditions. Even when in the middle of committing actions that my religion finds atrocious, she didn't flinch in the slightest, and still cared for me just as much. This was a powerful feeling. This was a level of acceptance that I had never found within the mormon church, as mormon acceptance is usually dependent upon the illusion of righteousness.

Combine that feeling of acceptance with the usual reasons for not wanting to leave a girl behind, and my girlfriend provided me with strong reasons not to want to go on a mission. On top of that, I had never really been much of a person to study the scriptures, or pay attention at church, so I didn't really desire a mission. There was still an intense social pressure to go on one; even for someone like me who isn't as socially integrated, the familial and peer pressure can be intense. So I was torn, and wasn't sure what decision to make.

The tipping point, interestingly enough, came from an active missionary. I did a year of college while contemplating my future, and at this college there were a pair of missionaries assigned to campus. Since my parents had updated my church records, they knew where I lived and would visit occasionally. They knew I was deciding whether or not to do the whole mission thing, and it culminated in a meeting one day with the missionaries. I admitted my hesitancy, and they responded in a most unusual manner.

The eldest missionary (I regret that I do not remember his name) started out by explaining that he knew exactly where I was coming from. He went on to explain that while he was a mere month away from returning home, this had actually been his second attempt at a mission. The first time around, he had committed transgressions that got him sent home early, and had to spend the requisite time repenting before going out again. During that year+ where he was officially a failed missionary, he was subject to the usual disdain and ostracizing that mormons tend to deliver to those that haven’t done a mission. He told me this so that I’d understand that he had been through both sides of the coin, and could understand both sides of the issue. After gaining my attention with this story, he then went on to tell me something that was definitely not the official church stance at the time.

The official stance of the church at the time was that Every Young Man go on a mission. Period. If you weren't worthy, then you needed to repent, and then go on a mission. The decree from the prophet was that every young man should serve, and that was the final word. What this elder said to me was somewhat different. He started by laying out the worthiness requirements to go on a mission, requirements that I naturally did not meet, but wasn't about to openly admit to. He then added another requirement, that you have to want to go on a mission. This desire shouldn't be to appease your parents, or to qualify as an RM for all those husband-seeking mormon girls, or to acquiesce to social pressure. You should desire to go for yourself, and for your own edification. And if you do not meet all of these requirements, for any reason at all, then you do not belong in the mission field. He had met some bad missionaries out in the field, and seen the harm they could do. If I wasn't sure, then the best thing I could do for the church was to not go. I muttered that I didn't really want to go, and he looked me in the eye and said, “Then you shouldn't go. You don’t belong out there.”  (As a side note, I suspect that this missionary had done both missions just to appease his parents, and probably didn't fully believe anymore when he told me this. But this is mere speculation, and is not something that occurred to me at the time.)

What a powerful statement this was to me! While I technically knew that going on a mission was a choice, it had never really seemed like much of an optional thing before. Nobody had ever before told me that it was okay not to go on a mission, or that not serving could actually be the right choice to make. This was the first time that I had actually realized that serving a mission (and consequently, being a standard mormon) and being a good person were not in fact the same thing. That there were ways to be a good person, and make right choices, that didn't involve these things.

Not only did this knowledge brighten my horizons, but it also flew in the face of what the church taught. If I were to put it in standard mormon terms, then thoughts of serving a mission caused a stupor of thought, while this realization that I didn't have to serve a mission filled me with peace and content. By their own tests, this was something I shouldn't do. There was certainly more thought put into the matter, but the scales were already tipped; after being told that it was OK not to serve a mission, it was a foregone conclusion that I would never go on one. The thought of not having to do so felt so much brighter than anything else that serving a mission seemed inconceivable. 

This decision provided some of the original foundations for my arguments against the religion of my parents. After all, in my own mind, this was not merely a selfish decision; it was the right decision. I didn't belong out there in any form, and by not going I was making the morally correct choice. This is likely why I was unwilling to back down with my family; no matter how badly I was treated, no matter how much they ostracized me, I didn't back down from my stance because I was right. If someone is going to treat me badly because I’m doing the right thing, then screw them; I’m not going to stop doing what I think is right.

Family members and other mormons didn't see it that way, of course. But if they are going to act in such a way over a morally correct decision, then what does that say about their religion? If I’m trying my best to be a good person and make good decisions, would a kind and loving god really condemn me? What does this say about such a god? My family members would try to talk me into coming back, but even at such an elementary stage my basic logic could still confound their efforts. They would try to convince me that they knew that the church was true, but this flew in the face of the basic definition of the word faith! It flew in the face of their religious teachings, where only the most holy and righteous people would even reach a point where they actually had a true knowledge of god, instead of just having faith. Every time a family member would try to convince me with a testimony, I'd stop them at the point where they said they know the church was true. I'd challenge them on that, and they never did give me a satisfactory answer.

So I didn't go on a mission, and I was treated quite poorly as a direct result. My parents' treatment of me included a confiscation of both my car keys and my house key, and instructions to my younger siblings never to let me inside the house without permission from a parent. And this was the place I was living at, mind you. Need to go to work? I had to walk; 40 minutes to get there, and 40 minutes to get back. Get home late and nobody will answer the door? Either sleep outside, or spend another 30 minutes walking to a friend's house.  I quickly moved out of my parents’ home, and honestly believed that I had been disowned. Whatever religious and moral direction my life would take, it was up to me.

My Exit Story Pt 1

Everyone that leaves the church has an exit story. There’s always something that made them doubt, something that made them question, or something similar. This one is my exit story.

I've always been a very individualistic person; I live life more by my own rules, and less by the whims of others. I found church boring, so I’d sleep through it. And when you have Mormon-sized families, your parents can't keep track of all of you. So I was allowed to sleep, as long as I did so discreetly. It didn't matter so much whether my parents disapproved of this action or not; I was bored, so I would sleep. With the constant sleeping through the first hour of church, I probably missed out on a lot of the indoctrination that many mormons go through. As a result, you could perhaps say that I already had a foot out to begin with. However, being the individualistic person I am, I only study something if it interests me personally. So even when I had mostly left the church, I never actually sat down and studied it, and came across many of the very real issues that exist there. So while I might have started with half a foot out, I also ended up keeping a partial foot in for far longer than I should have.

While I never really studied the scriptures or any of that (too boring), I was still raised in the church, so my default mode of thinking was still mormon, and my default setting was to believe. As a youngster and a young teenager, confirmation bias would also ‘present’ just enough evidence to keep me from seriously questioning. In retrospect, it was all little things; I’d lose my glasses, and couldn't find them after searching and searching. I’d spend enough time not being able to find them that I’d start to panic a little, and would finally pray to god to help me find my glasses. I’d eventually find them, and viola!, supporting evidence of god. Good old confirmation bias, it never steers you wrong. This continued until I was maybe 16 or so, when the first big step occurred on my Stairway to Apostasy.

It should be noted that there were several little steps before this. Like several people, I never felt anything special when I was baptized, or when I received the priesthood at 12. And while I noticed these things, and wondered a little bit why I had never felt anything special, I was able to suppress any tendency to seriously question. As an individualistic person, I never found it quite interesting enough to really delve into seriously. And since this was all I had ever known since birth, it wasn't really very different; I had no normal to compare it to, and thus no sense of just how abnormal things were.

Step 1

When I was 16 or 17, there was a large tri-stake youth conference being held in my corner of the church. I lived in a part of the US that had a sparse mormon population, so involving 3 stakes meant that it included the youth across 3 states. This was billed as a Very Big Event, and was going to be Very Special.

Included in this youth conference were two events in particular that (according to the mormon belief) would be particularly special. The first one was having all of the youth perform the Joseph Smith experiment. The event took place near some undeveloped, lightly wooded land. They walked us all out into the “forest”, and at appropriate intervals (far enough not to disturb the other kids), they would have individuals pick spots out in the trees in order to repeat for themselves the events of Joseph Smith, and pray to god to ask which church was true. This might not sound particularly special to someone who has not been a mormon, but to those in the know, this was a Big Deal. The so-called founder of mormonism, Joseph Smith, is a very canonized figure in mormon culture, almost as much as Jesus himself.  Everything he said was special, everything he did was special, and filled with importance, he was almost completely sinless, etc. Members of the mormon church are taught to revere Joseph Smith, and are even taught that his place in heaven is secondary only to Jesus.

In accordance with this status, specific events in his life are taught to be very special and full of meaning. So it was when he claimed to have prayed to god as a young boy, asking which church he should join, and god supposedly answered him by telling him not to join any of the existing churches, for they were all false. (Funny how he never told anyone this story, not even family, until well over a decade after it supposedly happened. But that’s for another day…) To this day, church leaders insist that you can know of the truth of the church by repeating this experiment, and praying to god about whether the church is true.

A chance to perform this under the original conditions (JS supposedly went out into the woods to do this bit of praying) was a special event, in mormon thinking. It’s something where one would surely feel the spirit, and gain a powerful testimony. So when jack shit ended up happening, that served as one of the first real seeds of doubt that I couldn't easily explain away. For once in my life, I had been sincere; instead of dicking around or taking a nap, I actually did what I was supposed to. I got down on my knees, and with all sincerity prayed for an answer. I had never really prayed seriously before; everything up to that point was mostly either "please help me find my glasses" or the robotic, going-through-the-motions prayer I told when going to bed. But this time was different. This time, I had really put forth effort. And nothing had responded.

That wasn't the only thing in this conference to cause me to doubt, however. The second Big Event of the conference was that the prophet himself came to speak to us. It should be noted here that mormons elevate their leader to an even higher pedestal than catholics do to the pope. Most mormons consider their leader to be infallible, but also consider him to be a prophet in every biblical sense of the word. This is a person that communicates with god, reveals god’s word, and can perform miracles just like the prophets of old. TBM's believe that the modern prophet can move mountains if he commands them to, or part the waters of the sea, should he choose to command it.

Surely such a powerful and righteous man has a veritable aura of righteousness about him! To be in his presence, how could someone not feel the spirit? This is the sort of vision that the youth are given about the leader of the mormon church. And this person was coming just to speak with us. Just the youth, and the prophet; no adults. We were important enough for this powerful and righteous figure to travel a considerable distance, just to speak with us. Yes, this was going to be a Really Big Deal, and meeting the prophet would surely strengthen all of our testimonies!

They place their leader upon such a high pedestal that any reality will surely fail to live up to the hype. And so it was with me. they had built up my expectations for this event, and the actual event didn't live up to my expectations. I felt nothing special by being in the same room as the prophet, or seeing him physically with my own two eyes. His talk wasn't anything special either, it was just the same boring crap that you get in general conference, which was just a polished up version of what I tried to sleep through on Sundays. Not only did the event fail to live up to the expectations, but even worse it ended up being downright boring. Whatever part of me that had ever wanted to believe was partially shattered by this event. If the mormon prophet doesn't move you, then what possibly could? Two of the most faith-promoting events my teen-aged brain could conceive of had both occurred, and both had come up empty. Combined, these two events served as my first major step towards leaving the church.