The Exmormon Rumor Mill

Since I spend enough time with plenty of exmormons, I hear all sorts of funky things.  I'm passing things along that I found on the internet, after hearing about these stories.  Please note that I'm not claiming any of this is true (and that I just like speculating, which gives me a good probability that I could be wrong), but it is certainly interesting:

Julio E Davila:  Davila was in the second quorum of seventies.  That's pretty high up in the LDS church.  Rumor is that he had an affair with a secretary and lives in Mexico city with her.  Rumor also is that he doesn't believe in the LDS church.  If that's true, he would be the highest mormon authority, that's known to not believe.


Terryl Givens:  A devout Mormon professor in Virginia.  He apparently knows all of the mormon history problems, yet says that he chooses to believe anyway.  He's been going around Britain giving fireside talks about church history problems, and is going to do the same in Provo this July (2013).  It seems that the church acknowledges 10 major problems with the church, and is going to roll out a 3-year plan of Church approved history books to deal with these (according to David Twede at Mormonthink).

The unknown seventy who doesn't believe:  

Speculation is rampant among exmormon boards about which seventy met with Grant Palmer, which he gets a lot of flak for.  I'm not sure why I linked to the FAIR blog... they have silly reasoning as usual, rationalizing that it has to be Carlos Amado, Claudio Costa, or John Dickson, and saying that that's impossible!  FAIR's reasoning was that the GA had to have been a GA since 1995 in order to have intimate contact with the twelve apostles of the church.

Now, I'm certain that there's more than a few seventies who don't believe.  But I present to you my theory.  Now, since Grant has never actually told me any details regarding this seventy other than what was said on the Mormonthink blog...  (*cough* ...actually, I thought it was Marlin K Jensen that Grant was meeting with ... I really don't think Marlin believes... *cough*  I asked Grant, "What do you think of Marlin Jensen?"  Based on Grant's response, that wasn't the GA he had been meeting with..)  Anyways, since I don't have any more information than anyone else, I am free to speculate and post my speculation publicly.  According to Grant, this particular GA doesn't plan on coming out, figuring the church will take care of itself.

Narrowing down the seventy:

Now, the people on Mormon Dialogue forums had two guesses: Lynn Robbins and Craig Zwick.  The guess here is based on separating GA's by who is in Utah (or North America), who is in the first quorum (since Grant said specifically "First Quorum" and not "Presidency"), and since they have been in the seventy the longest, 16.2 and 18.2 years, respectively.  Based on the familiarity with the apostles and the stages they go through, we can get rid of anyone who isn't in Utah, who has served under 10 years, leaving us with:  Elders Walker, Golden, Snow, Robbins, and Zwick (in choronological order).  We can remove Walker and Golden, considering they were in Asia and Africa most of the past decade, ensuring they would have less contact with the twelve.  Snow can also be removed, since this June 2013 Ensign article by him is anti-internet and anti-learning.   Leaving us with, Robbins, and Zwick.

Zwick is part of the correlation and missionary department.  His construction company has also built many church buildings.  He also is apparently a Republican (although Robbins donated the same amount), whose son helped out on the Romney campaigns.  (Whoa!  That's a huge TIE to the LDS church!)  I don't think it's Zwick.  Someone who didn't believe in the church couldn't be part of the correlation and missionary department.  Someone who had huge financial ties to the church, where coming out as a non-believer, wouldn't have suggested that he would even come out, much less risk meeting with Grant because it could influence his construction company, his son's political job, and their financial future.

By the process of elimination, I present to you Lynn G. Robbins, who I suspect to be the apostate seventy who is meeting with Grant Palmer.  Keep in mind, that this is all just a rumor (that I'm starting,) that has no basis in anything, other than the things that I've linked to on the internet.

Lynn G. Robbins:  Lynn has a son who is openly gay.  He currently has no role identified on the LDS church web site, giving him free time to just hang in Utah. His money is less tied to the church, although still tied with the Franklin Covey group.  He talked about general Christian principles and hypocrisy in his last talk, where he ended with a generic testimony ending.  He's been in the first quorum since 2000, second quorum since 1997, being in a position over the United States areas.. and considering the South American boom in the nineties where he was a mission president, would have had plenty of contact with those in the twelve who were stationed down there.


Whoever the apostate seventy is, it's a shame that he won't openly come out as non-believing.  The world needs more heroes who speak up when they see something wrong;  we're all in this together.

2nd Annual Mass Resignation Event from the LDS Church

Date:  June 29, 2013. 

Time:  7:00 pm – open to the public.

Location:  Ensign Peak Trailhead

In June 2012, over a hundred people showed up to support resignation from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (also known as the Mormon or LDS church).  This year, they are doing it again. Former and current members of the LDS church will be marching on Ensign Peak at 7pm on June 29, 2013, in a mass resignation event from the LDS church.

This event means a lot to the people who are involved.  Resigning from the church is a milestone for some, showing that they no longer want to be associated with the LDS church or its practices.  Many people never resign who no longer believe.  Those who do resign do it to make a statement, either to the church, themselves, or their families.  For some, that statement is simply to stop the church from contacting them to return.  For others, that statement is for themselves, marking that they have moved beyond church culture and church beliefs.  And still, for others, that statement is about disagreement with church history or practices, such as the Evergreen rehabilitation program, the polygamous nature of both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and changing church doctrines.

For many who resign, Mormonism has been a culture and way of life.  Leaving the church can be a traumatic experience for some, as those people adjust to a world “outside the church”.  As an example, people who leave the LDS church may not experience their first coffee, tea, or alcoholic drink until they have left the church, which could be in their 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s.  Many people who stop believing in the church feel that they have to learn to live a new life. 

Members can resign from the LDS church by sending an email to msr-confrec@ldschurch.org with their full name, date of birth, and membership number.  Other information such as baptism date and their ward or branch can also be supplied.  A letter can also be sent to Member Records, 50 E North Temple, Room 1372, SLC UT 84150-5310. 

Salt Lake Pride Festival!

Honestly, I couldn't have expected pride to go any better.

Sure, security started to surround one of our guys.  Like, lots of security.  We confronted them about it, and apparently they thought he was someone else.  The crowds were very receptive to us.  It was a blast.  Next year we are planning on getting a vehicle, with music going and a trailer behind it, either for a float or so people can dance!

In case you haven't heard, some of us are helping out in planning a Provo Pride Festival for this September.  Check it out!

Keepin' it ZEN

Going through life as an ExMormon, now Atheist, there are a lot of obstacles that pass by, especially when it comes to things like an old friend who is still currently active in the church approaches you for the first time after the transformation to unbelief. It can seem frustrating at some times, especially after many misconceptions. All I have to say is to Keep It ZEN, meaning to have much patience and kindness, no matter how difficult the situation. If things go out of hand with the other person, I find it important to excuse yourself and kindly leave the conversation.

As a proclaimed Atheist, I encounter many misconceptions, that and sometimes angry people, just because I don't believe anymore and have a different point of view for things. Many misconceptions I hear as an ExMormon Atheist are "You're only angry at God, because...", "Such and such things of your prayers weren't answered because you probably where living in sin", "God didn't answer your prayers when you expected them, so you decided to become a baby about it by pretending to disbelief" and of course the one that only happens for a little while when they say "Oh, you're probably just going through a phase", but that one stops a couple of months or so after you haven't returned and they realize it's not a phase after all. Again, these are many misconceptions, mainly created through assumption and conclusions. Many times I have to make myself clear, explain that I'm not angry at God, I never was, plus I can't be angry at something I don't believe to exist. Being angry at God to me only makes as much sense to be angry at Spongebob for living in a Pineapple, which wouldn't make any sense. Explain that unanswered prayers probably had nothing to do with living in sin, I did all I could to live righteously, I don't see how a loving God like the one proclaimed by the LDS church would abandon one of his children just for simply not being perfect (Even he LDS church teaches that everybody is imperfect. They believe that Christ came to pay for our sins for not being perfect), what kind of God would do that? Now people that say that "God didn't answer my prayers when I expected them" trying to make the point that God answers prayers at his own time... well those people don't even know a single thing about me and why I left the church. When I was LDS, I believed the whole thing of God answering prayers at his own time. What they don't know about me is that I felt that God did answer my prayers, I believed that when he answered me, it was usually through the Holy Ghost and/or signs that I saw that seemed so conviencing to me that they must have been some kind of sign for my faithfulness and thought came from God, I actually got to the point many times that I was 100% sure of it without a doubt that they were from God. The thing is, all those things pretty much all just went down the drain and non of it was true after all. And the whole phase thing, as I already explained, isn't a phase at all when it continues to last without any turning points and knowing that I could never return for many many reasons. That doesn't sound like a phase to me.

Anyways, to my conclusion, after all these misconceptions as well as others not mentioned, even the most frustrating ones, I find it important to just be patient and to Keep It ZEN (I think that shall be my new slogan, lol.) In the past I've only come to realize that if you argue back and continue arguing, you'll only help create more frustration and within yourself as well, which only leads to angry people and NOBODY getting their point across to the other person. So I'll just say it one last time, Keep It ZEN :)

Conference Demonstrating

Saturday, April 6th, 2013

I couldn't help it.  I had to be out there, doing something.  I ended up holding the two signs shown above for most of the time.  I had one guy pass by, "Oh no!  I'm afraid to think."  I didn't say anything, but if I was Mormon, I would be.  Think about the question, "if the church was false, would you want to know?"  Many Mormons wouldn't.  It's their life, it's their family, it's their culture.

The guy standing next to me was with me all of Saturday.  Church security came out and took our pictures.  Funny thing, they don't have any cameras in that particular corner that we were standing at.  It's only after we appeared friendly that the guy began talking with us, especially after I pointed out that he was church security based on his ear piece and pin.  Church security asked us whether we were pro or anti LDS.  That means that we were doing it right.  We wanted to appear LDS.  I didn't take any pictures of the other demonstrators, but generally they are just over the top and push people more towards the church.  We looked Mormon.  Even though we are no longer LDS, we are still very culturally LDS.  We would blend in at any Church function.  We talk the talk, can think the think, and can look the look.  Our families are LDS.  It's still our culture and background.

Our goal was to look friendly, Mormon enough, and not crazy.  The point was to show that there are friendly apostates around.  There's tons of people who are attending conference who no longer believe are or on the verge of belief.  I stood out there for those people, so they can find more information and other exmormons if they need it.

Our look and posters worked.  On top of that, my friend discussed with the over-the-top protestors.  He used very Mormon language when arguing with them.  When he did that, we both looked much more Mormon.  Huge swaths of crowds would stop and stare at me.  They would look at me for plenty long, often smiling after they read one or another sign.

A 5-year old girl went to my friend for a hug.  Her mom was very against it, but eventually let the little girl go.  The little girl gave my friend a hug, and then tried to hold the "hug an exmormon" sign.  Hahah.. oh man.  That made us uncomfortable, because we don't want any trouble.  We tried to get the girl to go back to her mom as quickly as possible.

There were people standing around trying to get conference tickets.  There was one guy who looked like he belong in the 1930s, with a brown fedora.  He started preaching about the book of mormon, and how people shouldn't believe the other protesters but they should believe us.  We then corrected him.  He then started yelling, "But don't believe these guys!  They are adulterers."  I then yelled back, "Unfair! Unfair!  I can't be an adulterer!  I've never been married!"  He then yelled, "These guys look for a sign!"  I then yelled, "I have plenty of signs right here!  I'm holding two!"  (I thought it was very Mormon of him to be so presumptuous about us -- he had never talked with us and didn't know any of our positions on anything.)

When my friend talked with one of the other demonstrators, he got called "just as bad as the rest of them" and a "liar" because my friend called himself an atheist.  I got called by that same demonstrator a "snake" a couple years ago, because I looked Mormon.  (I hung out at conference then, around the demonstrators to see how they behaved.)

Sunday, April 7th, 2013

I asked a young Mormon couple to take my picture here.  It's a cool picture, but still kind of crappy -- I think they were uncomfortable doing it.  (There's nothing that makes a Mormon uncomfortable like an exmormon!)

You'll notice my cough mask, sunglasses and hat.  Well, I was alone.  And Sunday is a much bigger day.  People probably took my picture because I stood out.  Church security took my picture again, but didn't talk with me this time.  I took their picture as well.  I don't mind my picture being taken.  I actually usually hope they end up on facebook or some site like that, because it means that more people will see the sites.  This time, I didn't want to associate Postmo stuff with me, because I stood out so much.  Truth be told, I'd rather be there with that look than not have anyone or anything there at all.  If other people had shown up with me, I probably wouldn't have looked that way.  But since I was alone, I made a gargantuan sign that I could hold up very high, that could be seen from a distance.  That's also something that other demonstrators don't do.  Even with my cough mask, sunglasses, and hat I still looked Mormony.  It actually did confuse some people, because some people did ask me whether I was LDS.  

One lady came and talked with me, "Are you LDS?"  

Me - "I served an LDS mission."

Lady - "Are you LDS?"

Me - "No, I'm not."

Lady - "Well then you must have done something wrong on your mission."

Me - "Whoa, that's a strong accusation!  I worked my butt off on my mission."

Lady - "Well you must have done something wrong on your mission.  Do you read your scriptures?"

Me - "No, I don't."

Lady - "Well that's your problem."

I understand that people are like this normally, just by the sake of being human.  But I believe that Mormonism amplifies looking down on people, and finding unreal flaws in others like this lady did.  Immediately she jumped to me having done something wrong.  She would be surprised at the number of people who attend church regularly who don't believe.

My feelings about protesting are probably best shown by another conversation with a guy.

Guy - "So, what is that site?"

Me - **handing him a pamphlett** "It's a history site."

Guy - "Is it pro LDS or anti LDS?"

Me  - "It's written by both LDS and former LDS people."

Guy - "Are you trying to deconvert us?"

Me - "I don't care whether you remain believing or not.  I think society is generally better when everyone understands and knows more."  Truth is, I also want to reach those people who are stuck in bad family situations who don't believe, who have no one to reach out to.  I wanted to hold a sign that said, "Postmos:  A group trying to prevent suicides by people who stopped believing by giving them friends." 

Guy - "Isn't this a little in your face?"

Me - "Well, your missionaries knock on my door at 10am on a Saturday morning.  This is a lot more benign than that."   If there's ever anyone who isn't Mormon at work, they usually end up with a minimum of three Book of Mormons -- that's a lot more in your face.  

Guy - "Did you go to BYU?"

Me - "No, I didn't."

Guy - "Then why are you wearing a BYU hat?  You look like a Mormon.  You're lying to people."

Me - "Well, I'd argue against you, but I won't.  But I am culturally a Mormon.  I was raised and am practically still Mormon."  

Guy - "Heh, yeah, look at your clean shaven face."  He then took off.

I'm not an antagonistic person, which makes it somewhat ironic that I was the one standing out there.  He was right, the BYU hat was lying.  But I felt that no other action of mine was lying.

The amazing part though was that the church had some very strong talks against the internet.  They even said that you shouldn't have emails that you don't share your password with your spouse!  That's CCRAAAAZZZYY.  First, that shows a lack of trust.  Second, that makes it much harder for people in horrible spousal situations to actually get out of them.  I think that's insane.  So, having me, stand out there, with one large website, for everyone to see, hopefully made an impression on a lot of people.

I then left when the afternoon session started.  I figured it was a good time to leave, as most people would have seen me leaving the morning session or going into the afternoon session.  I wouldn't reach any new people.  Besides, I didn't want to have to deal with traffic.  

When leaving, a bunch of really big guys asked to take a picture with me.  When taking a picture, one guy said, "The church is true."  I said, "Cool."  He then repeated, "The church is true."  I repeated, "cool" again.  They said something else, but I just wished them an enjoyable conference.  I encountered other protesters and they said that I was ineffective, especially since I had a quote from a feminist, ("The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off." - Gloria Steinem)  I'm glad they think that, because I don't want them to realize how effective I was.  I passed one church security guy.  He just sort of glared at me.  One protester said that church security told him that he would be better off dead.  Church security slightly scares me. 

When it boils down to it, I've been happier and more fulfilled as an apostate.  That's why I was out there.  Utah is #1 for antidepressant use (and any number of other things).  Mormons would be so much happier if they just weren't Mormon.  If they want to be miserable, they are welcome to it, but I'm going to try my darndest to see if I can't get them to see something better, more honest, and more open.  

I'll likely be back in the Fall to demonstrate, because I can't help it.  When I see something that I think will improve society, it's just in me to do what I can to help it along.

Hello! It's been awhile since I've posted. I've been dealing with custody court, meeting with other anti-polygamy people/groups, and working my jobs.

I've gotten quite a bit more information from the inside (Kingston Polygamous group). I got a hold of a Dance Card! I've tried to upload it here, but for some reason I couldn't. So instead, I'll describe what it's about and what's on it.

I realize there have been dance cards made before so that people would dance. For example, I heard of a dance card where you had to have girls/boys sign it, kind of promising to dance with you. That way people were dancing and not just sitting on the sidelines. That's a great way to make sure everybody dances and has fun, so I approve. This dance card, however, is completely different. This card was designed to keep more control on their young people.

On the first of the paper in bold letters it says," DANCE CARD", then underneath it is, "For Dance Card use ONLY. Please DO NOT use for scratch paper. Thank you!" Then there's a space for Name, Date, Type of dance (Holiday, Wendell's (picture Mr. Burns from The Simpson), etc), Time arrived, and Time departed. Under that it says, "List the people you dance with on the lines below. At the end of the dance, turn your dance card into your parents. Try to spend 50% of your time learning something new." Then there's 4 columns, First column says "Partner First and Last name", 2nd column says "Dance Step (Waltz, Fox Trot, etc)." The other two columns are the same. There's 50 spaces for names and steps. On the very bottom of the paper says, "Reviewed by and date (meaning date reviewed)."

Okay let's talk about this for a second. We'll start at the beginning. What if you really needed scratch paper? What if somebody was leaving a message you had to give to somebody else and that was the only paper you had on hand? I mean seriously? Hey at least they're being polite with the "Thank you!" Alright that brings us to the "Time arrived and Time departed" that's a little bit strange isn't it? I think there's enough said about that. I just wanted to point it out. Also I realize people are going to think, "O look they're trying to get their young people to try new things!" That's what they want it to seem like. When you hear how the card works you start to realize that's not their main focus. So now I will explain to you how this dance card works. For the boys in the group they are supposed to write the names of girls they want to dance with on the card before the dance. They then give the card to their parents. Their parents review it and can take away or add any girls' names they want their sons to dance with. The boy's parents meet with the parents of the girls that they REALLY want their sons to dance with (or marry) and okay it with the girl's parents. The boys have to dance with the girls that are already on their card. If they finish the card before the dance is over and they dance with any other girls they have to add the names of the girls that weren't on the card, along with the style of dance. After the dance they have to return the card back to their parents. The parents initial and put the date that they reviewed it after the dance.

So after the parents review it I'm not sure what happens to the card. I've asked and none of the young people know either. I do know that the Kingstons practice the Law of one above another, so I'm wondering if the parents have to turn the cards into the man that is "above" their family. Now this is not confirmed, it is just a thought I had. So now I must go, and I promise not to go MIA for so long again...Unless I go on vacation or something. ;)

My Exit Story Pt 4

Links to Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3

This last step, from being an agnostic (but still mormon in certain subconscious areas) and changing into a full PostMo, would once again take a little longer that perhaps it should have. Religion didn't really interest me, so I had no real reason to go back and actually study the issues with religion. Ironically, this led to a delay in finally throwing the last shackles off. Some little corner of my brain still held a little bit of an indoctrinated opinion (Well, if any religion is true, it’s probably mormonism), but my lack of enthusiasm for religion is precisely what prevented me from taking the time to root that opinion out. I remained semi-mormon because mormonism didn't interest me; now that's some ironic shit right there.

There were a couple of events that finally precipitated my final de-conversion step. The first occurred about a year ago during the holidays. That year, Christmas fell upon a Sunday. With all of the family in town, my mother begged and eventually convinced me to attend church with everyone else. She probably thought that it would be easier for me, as a Christmas session is church “easy mode”. They do a lot of singing, and not a lot of preaching. These things didn't prevent me from being incredibly uncomfortable, however.

The first problem I encountered  was the simple realization that my voice was shot. I haven’t really sung for many years now, and could no longer hold a pitch the way that I used to be able to. It was painful for me to try to sing precisely because I could remember being far better at it then I currently was. This isn't exactly a problem with mormonism, but it nevertheless led to the connection that I was not happy while inside the church building.

The second problem had mostly to do with the lyrics of the songs that were sung. Honesty is a large part of my current moral identity, and as I would look at the lyrics to the songs, I would look at their meaning and quickly realize, “I cannot sing this. To utter these words would literally make a liar out of me!” For members, the songs are harmless, innocent little things. For me, I could look at them and see messages that rang false, and see passive brainwashing that couldn't be unseen once you had noticed it. These were songs that I was morally bound to not sing. I was miserable the entire time I was there, and couldn't wait to leave.

The other main event that helped me take that final step was being invited into a local ex-mormon group. Someone up in my office area had heard me give some of my opinions on religion one day, and realized that I would probably be a good fit for their group. They added me to the group, and invited me to participate in the events that the group held. I ended up attending an atheist vs. mormon debate event that the group held a few weeks later, and had a very fun time at the event. Not only was I enjoying myself, but I was also being exposed to some of the evidence against the church. Some of this evidence sounded like some pretty crazy stuff; as it turns out, the claims were just wild enough to hold my interest, and actually convince me to spend time researching about them.

Once that step had been made, the rest was history. The only thing that had kept me from really rooting out my mormon heritage up until that point was a lack of interest; once the spark of interest had been lit, there was no stopping it. My education is far enough along that I’m decent at not only looking at an argument head-on, but also analyzing its underlying logic for problems, as well as looking up their sources in order to make sure that any claims were backed up by popular scientific acceptance. So I wasn't just looking at something that somebody said and accepting it as true; I was fully researching these pieces of evidence before moving on.

And boy, did I find a treasure trove. From the Book of Abraham to the accounts of the First Vision to the surmounting archaeological evidence to the problems with the 3 and 7 Witnesses, each new thing that I encountered (and subsequently verified the validity of) just seemed to bug my eyes out a little more, and make me wonder how I ever could have believed this stuff! The evidence against it is astounding, and the fact that the church retains as many members as it does in the internet age is a testament to the strength of its brainwashing indoctrination.

While these discoveries included many horrifying things, it wasn't all bad. This has led to an increased desire to study the problems existent within religion, and has helped me develop my own moral code in useful directions that I might not have otherwise considered. Nevertheless, let it be said plainly and clearly at this point: I am Out of the mormon church. I am just as confident in it’s falseness as its members are in its authenticity. There is a 0% chance that I will ever return, and I will never claim it to be anything but a fraud. Let there be no doubt on this matter. This is my Exit Story, and I have definitively Left the Building. I am a happy PostMo, and it is better over on this side.